Sunday Rant
Posted by Jeff Pruitt - 5/31/09 @ 7:11 pm - Filed Under National Politics
I haven’t been posting much lately due to other commitments (that will change soon) but I thought I’d post a quick rant capturing my thoughts about the murder of abortion provider Dr George Tiller. The murder took place today outside of his church in my hometown of Wichita, KS.
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53 Responses to “Sunday Rant”
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Jeff, murdering this “doctor” was wrong and I am sure his murder is supported by only a micro fraction of the pro-life community. His killer should go to jail for the rest of his life.
However, comparing this Ghoul to MLK is outrageous and comparing the right to kill late term babies with the civil rights movement is even more outrageous.
Come on, this guy was a butcher.
Green Jeans,
You’re right that comparison would be ridiculous and that wasn’t my intent. I wasn’t implying any moral equivalence between the two and even after re-watching it I don’t think it’s there but I can see how others might interpret it that way.
The real point I was trying to make with that statement was that political assassinations usually don’t have the desired outcome.
You’re also right that his murder is only supported by a small fraction of people but I can assure you that fraction is much larger in Wichita than it is here…
Jeff,
Green Jeans got it right on this one. Murder is murder. Neither the law nor Christian morality permit the murder even of murderers like Dr. Tiller. There’s no question that this Ghoul needs to be punished for the crime he has committed against society and against the God he mistakenly thinks he’s serving.
The rest of your comments–the ones that make gross, baseless, exaggerated, hateful claims about the Christian residents of Wichita, Kansas–are absurd. Almost as absurd as comparing racial equality under the law to legal abortions.
Ease up on the jihadist-style rhetoric, take a deep breath, and release.
Does this mean we can start waterboarding Pentacostals?
Every bit an appalling and hate-filled video as you would expect to see from that lunatic Fred Phelps. Congratulations.
You don’t have the frame of reference to make that statement. I grew up there and know firsthand what some of these “Christians” are like.
Anyone who has lived there understands the distinction I’m making for the fundamentalists that proliferate there. They are a disturbing lot and I wouldn’t take back one thing I said about them.
Jeff,
So let me get this right. You think the killers of MLK and Dr. Tiller are the same group of people by stating..
That’s about the most absurd thing I’ve ever seen on this blog. Funny, I’ve never heard about the KKK being pro-choice.
Then in your response to Mr. Green Jeans you imply this was a political assassination?
No sane person condones the killing of Dr. Tiller. However, no one can forgive him for this. (Warning, graphic)
Abe,
I didn’t say the killers were the same; I said many of the same people probably celebrated both murders. Most of the crazy fundamentalists I knew growing up were racist - that’s the basis for that comment. It is absurd, but that’s Wichita fundamentalism for you.
Also, of course this was an assassination for political reasons. He wasn’t randomly picked out of the crowd. He was murdered because of his work providing abortions.
Keith,
Phelps? Unfortunately I grew up having to see that jackass on a regular basis and let me say that your comment is just plain stupid.
Let’s send the 700 Club to Guantanamo
Ahhh, Jeff, why’d you have to go and be a rebel and shoot this video ? You done did it now pilgrim !
The ultra right wing, fundamentalist, neocon, evangelicals who are already hunkered down in a shotgun shack somewhere in the Montana wilderness or nothern Idaho, with a Bible in one hand and AK-47 in the other, who home school their youngins all the while indoctrinating them into believing Adam & Eve rode around cowboy style on dinosaurs, will now have to rescind their invitation to you to join them.
Bummer eh ???
You see….these enlightened, er loopy folk from the movie Jesus Camp don’t take too kindly to pro choice, evolution believing, anti freedom loving people like yourself.
Better keep a low profile and move along with the herd. Yousa in hostile territory here bro ! Colonel Sanders was onto this and instead saw vast oppertunity. He went on to make lots and lots of money by training church folk to nibble on his 21 herbs and spices after a good old fashioned fire and brimstone sermon !
Inconceivable !!
My advice: Do the same.
Jeff
Your comments were thoughtless and hate filled. Its full of gross generalizations and hyperbole. I know its been discussed here that the comparison to Hitler in any discussion usually costs the speaker his or her credibility. Can I posit that the comparison of an abortion doctor to MLK has the same effect?
Keith,
My comments were thought out although perhaps they would qualify as hate-filled. And I still don’t see where I made the comparison between Tiller and MLK. Just because I used both names doesn’t imply that they are comparable.
Their deaths are comparable. Both were highly controversial, private citizens murdered for their political ideology and actions. That’s where the similarity ends. I think people are reading too much into it.
It does not teach one or others not to kill if the punishment or consequence, in return, is to be killed, regardless of any belief, regardless of any circumstance.
You’re a rational person, I think, so I’m not sure whether you didn’t get a lot of sleep Saturday night, or just got ticked off, but that video was every bit as crazy as the Kelty, the Real Story video. It’s the video version of a 4 a.m. drunk phone call to an ex-girlfriend, nonsensical but seemed like a good idea at the time.
A question: was MLK pro-life or pro-abortion? His children are decidedly pro-life. Having said that, I submit that those that call themselves churched in Witchita that would celebrate anyone’s murder are not churched at all. They merely attend a building called a church and describe themselves as fundamendalists or, in Dr. Tiller’s case, Lutherans. Its really quite meaningless. They might as well belong to a golfing club. Might even be more fun for them.
Keith, Green Jeans:
We’re forgetting that Mr. Pruitt subscribes to Liberal’s Rules for Argument. Under that Code, generalizations are: (1) prohibited even if true to the extent they concern race, gender, sexual preference, ethnicity, immigration status, or non-Christian religious belief; but (2) permissible even if false to the extent they concern conservative political ideology or Christian religious belief.
Jeff, you cannot just equate “abortion” to every other political issue “taxation”, “gun control” \ etc etc. This guy did more than hold a political view.
Most people who are against late term abortion believe that it is nothing short of cold blooded murder. They believe that Dr. Tiller was nothing short of a butcher of children. This is not a debate over the morning-after pill, this guy’s specialty was ripping apart 20 week old babies and throwing them in the trash.
I hope there an exclusive room reserved in the depths of hell for him.
So to compare him with MLK is sickening to most rational human beings no matter how loose the comparison was, and to equate late-term abortion to a debate on taxation or any other run of the mill political issue is ridiculous.
Hard to deny that Green Jeans is right.
Green Jeans,
It is incorrect to assume that the civil rights movement was not every bit as controversial as abortion is now - even more so.
You continue to say that I “compared him to MLK” yet you have provided no explanation for that statement. Where did I compare the two? I said the assassination of Tiller won’t stop abortion just as the assassination of MLK didn’t stop the civil rights movement.
How in the world could anyone suggest that I was comparing Tiller and MLK? It’s a ludicrous conclusion to draw from my statement. Like I said before, just because you use two names in a sentence doesn’t mean you are comparing the merits of the two individuals.
Context does matter and in this case, as I’ve explained more than once, I was comparing their assassinations which I do believe are very similar.
I don’t support late term abortion but I also won’t cheer the murder of Dr Tiller or anyone else who might hold a differing opinion. I hope there’s another exclusive room reserved in the depths of hell for those people…
Rumpole,
I wasn’t generalizing about Christians. I was speaking directly about the fundamentalist ones that I knew from growing up in Wichita. If you want to say that I was generalizing about them then so be it.
I have a special feeling of disdain for those people that probably will never go away. I’m sure the feeling is mutual…
Keith,
You could be right. And I’m sure it won’t be the last…
Jeff,
My point was that most people who are against late-term abortion believe that an actual MURDER is taking place. In this respect their are no comparable “political” issues.
I did not say that the civil rights movement was not every bit as controversial at the time.
Jeff, watch your video. No rationale human being could watch that video and come to the conclusion that 1. you had not drawn a direct comparison between Tiller and MLK and/or 2. that you had not treated as moral equivalents, the civil rights movement and Tiller’s right to rip viable 20 week old babies from the womb.
However, the thing I am most alarmed about is that I seem to be on the same page as Rumpole which is a frightening place to be for a moderate like myself.
Green Jeans,
Again, we disagree.
I did re-watch the video and I still conclude that only a person exercising an irrational and biased judgment could think I was drawing a direct comparison or treating them as moral equivalents.
There is simply nothing in my statement to suggest otherwise. But I suppose this has now become an argument over semantics…
Green Jeans,
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Hate to break it to you Jeff… People did walk with dinosaurs, don’t you watch Land of the Lost!!!
Jon, Great land of the lost reference!
Jeff,
You most certainly equated George Tiller with MLK by using the language, “just like”, and by not differentiating between certain fundamentalists and other Christians, you equated all Christians with terrorists. Do a google search sometime on “Faith and Reason.” You’ll be shocked to find that more than a few religious folk are very rational creatures.
Please provide the link where you saw anyone dancing in the streets following the murder of Mr. Tiller? How about links to all of the beheadings taking place in Wichita? You project with your words what you want to pro life movement to be, not what it is.
The pro life movement respects the dignity of all human life, including Mr. Tiller’s, and was peacefully protesting and praying for his conversion of heart. The same way we do for all those who won’t face the truth.
Time to go Socratic - when did your life begin? Natural law says life begins when a sperm and egg unite. What’s the first protection in the Bill of Rights? Life. No exclusions mentioned for the unborn.
Do you believe someone who attacks a woman who is 20 weeks pregnant and kills the baby should be found guilty of murder (currently being considered as law by the state)? How about at 15 weeks? 10? After a positive pregnancy test? Life is life, no matter the size, location, stage of development or it’s degree of dependency.
The link you should have made between the pro life community and MLK is that they are/were both fighting the human rights and civil rights fights of their respective generations.
Peace,
Mike Kelly
Mike,
Another irrational listening of my rant. Why not quote what I actually said? Because that would not support your argument of course. Just for the record, what I said was the murder of dr Tiller won’t stop abortions JUST LIKE the murder of MLK didn’t stop the civil rights movement. Please point out where the moral comparison was made.
I’m still 100% convinced that the preconceived biases held by people are what causes them to read more into the quote than is present.
That is absolutely ridiculous. There is nothing whatsoever in my rant to support that. I called out the Wichita Taliban - you generalized that to mean ALL Christians, not me. Is that an over-the-top characterization for the fundamentalists? Sure, but after all it was a rant and the truth is I’m not convinced it’s that far off.
It’s called hyperbole. If you don’t think a certain section of fundamentalists were ecstatic about his murder then you need to visit Wichita sometime. Just because you have never spoken to one of these people doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
What does that have to do with anything I wrote? I find it comical that you think I have some preconceived notion about what the Pro Life movement is without even knowing (or asking) whether or not I’m Pro Life.
I think it’s pretty audacious for you to assume to completely understand my ideology because I think the Wichita fundamentalists are a bunch of loony tunes and that Dr Tiller shouldn’t have been assassinated.
What is all this Obama-like “moral equivalency” argument (such as his comparison today of 6 million jews dying in the Holocaust being like the “homeless” Palestinians)?
An Army recruiter was killed in Arkansas by a Muslim convert trained in Yeman with no outrage. The 11th homicide occurred yesterday in Fort Wayne with no outrage.
But the doctor was murdered who makes a living killing babies for a fee somehow deserves to be made into a martyr because conservative Christians opposed his profession and questioned his morality? I think not.
Giving George Tiller even moral-equivalence status with MLK doesn’t work either, because when you push his Civil Rights leadership aside, King too was not a very nice man.
Jeff,
You quoted yourself making the moral equivalency. I’m sorry if you can’t see it.
So “a rant” justifies over the top generalizations and hyperbole? And you honestly think fundamentalists are as bad as people that kill people that leave their religion? Your shrill tone and content embody what is killing reasoned debate in our society.
I made no assumptions about your ideology. I asked questions that would demonstrate whether you are pro-life or not. I think it’s comical and audacious that you didn’t answer. So let’s give it another go:
When did your life begin?
Do you believe someone who attacks a woman who is 20 weeks pregnant and kills the baby should be found guilty of murder? How about at 15 weeks? 10? After a positive pregnancy test?
Thanks,
Mike
Here’s a little science for you, Pruitt. When I was 1 day old (in the womb) I looked just exactly like I was supposed to look at that stage of gestation. How about you? Did you look like a dolphin or maybe a donkey? I think not. You also was and are today a human being. Mr Roeder will probably face the death penalty over this sensless murder of Dr. Tiller. “All life is precious, from conception till natural death”
Jeff,
You are starting to look very foolish. At some point, just admit that in the heat of the moment you compared Tiller to MLK and compared the plight of late term abortionist to the civil rights movement. I mean come on, If Rosie Odonnel says I am NOT fat 100 times, she is still fat. You cant just keep denying the frickin obvious. Watch the video.
In my opinion life begins at conception. When science looks for life outside of earth, such as mars, they are looking for microorganisms. They consider this to be life or signs of life (better be careful with words). Based on this definition, human life begins at conception. The difference between a fetus and a baby is where they actually live. A fetus lives inside the womb of a woman (may change with science) where as a baby lives outside the womb (may live in some type of life support apparatus).
Is there any difference? Both need the help of an outside entity to survive. If we have a polluter if the environment who kills people with toxins, they would be charged with murder. However, the environment of the fetus is a no man’s land. there could be some reference made that people do not own or control their own bodies (illegal drugs, alcohol) where they are arrested for the endangerment of others. Could this then be construed as endangerment to the fetus during an abortion?
The question I would raise is what would you do if you saw a person being brutally beaten? Would you call for help? Would you intervene? If you saw someone about to be killed, what would you do?
The law in some states treats the fetus as life to be protected and in others as garbage. The issue is not religious, but moral. To me being pro life is not being a Christian; it has nothing to do with being a Christian, but having everything to do with being human.
How many people thought it would have been a good idea to get rid of Hitler early on? This would have been called murder, assassination or whatever. It is the deliberate taking of life. When does a person have the right to take another’s life?
Very difficult topic.
There’s life and there’s intelligent life. I just ate a hamburger. A cow died to provide the patty, and some wheat died to make the bun. I’m going outside today to kill some plant life, and I doubt anyone reading blog is going to discourage me from doing so.
Intelligent life is the life that we value and should protect. Life actually begins before conception, since sperm and ova are living cells. But can a sperm cell think? Can a 1 day old embryo feel? As best as science can understand, a brain is required for intelligence. I would argue that a fetus gains rights when it forms a brain.
Green Jeans,
Until you can back that up with a rational analysis of what I said, with quotes, then I will admit no such thing. I know we live in a sound-bite society but listening comprehension is still important and not terribly difficult if given the old college try…
Mike,
To be honest I’m not sure if I would qualify as pro-life OR pro-choice. I’m not sure why anyone would care but if you must know I used to be staunchly pro-choice but that has changed significantly over the years. To summarize my position now I would say:
Like I said, I doubt those positions would fit nicely within either the pro-life or pro-choice camps…
Albert,
I don’t believe in the death penalty either. But as I understand it, Roeder is not eligible for the death penalty under Kansas law.
Ugh.
I provide a website where anyone can come and say just about whatever they wish and somehow that is killing reasoned debate?
Sometimes people won’t agree with you and they might even disagree vehemently. It’s really not the end of the world.
But like I always say, nobody forces you to come here and read the content or shrill responses. We can’t accidentally pop up while you’re watching television or riding home from work in your car listening to the radio.
You choose to come here and state your opinion and in the process read other opinions. Not only do websites like these not kill reasoned debate; sometimes I think they’re the only place left where it’s welcome…
“Intelligent life is the life that we value and should protect. Life actually begins before conception, since sperm and ova are living cells. But can a sperm cell think? Can a 1 day old embryo feel? As best as science can understand, a brain is required for intelligence. I would argue that a fetus gains rights when it forms a brain.”
Intelligent life, what is the intelligence? Does a person in a coma have intelligence? Does a person with altimers have intelligence? Both of these individuals afflicted need others to help them survive. Their prognosis to live a more fruitful life are in doubt. When compared to that of a fetus, the odds and potential of the fetus to live a much more productive life are great.
At conception, all the material needed for human life is there. Does it really make a difference?
Jeff:
While I may or may not agree with the content of your posting, sites like yours do appear to be one of the few remaining bastions of open forum debate.
Clearly the topic of abortion (just like Civil Rights) is intrinsically tied to a DEEPLY personal moral & religious fabric. While certain groups may have similar views ultimately it comes down to individual choice (no flippant pun intended).
The solutions argued among the groups of similar though are not going to sway the individuals involved.
People make decisions & if one of their decisions results in a negative/illegal outcome they are individually responsible.
In the absence of coercive actions forcing its members to commit illegal acts the group an individual belongs to is only an indicator of shared ideologies not the cause of the decision.
If coercive actions on the part of the group are demonstrable & provable then as the legal system delves into the situation said group will suffer punitive actions along with the individual who committed the crime.
Oh I dont know Jeff? Let me try this quote:
“murdering Dr. Tiller will not stop abortion, just like murdering Dr. King did not stop civil rights”
I know it is a real stretch, but I am going to go with this quote to support that you compared Dr. Tiller and Dr. King.
Jeff,
First I want to affirm you for answering the question on where you stand. My stance has changed pretty significantly as well, and it’s a difficult process to unwrap from any position we hold strong beliefs on. My hope is that you’ll keep wrestling with it - I think it’s the foundational issue of our generation.
I might have been guilty myself of a little hyperbole with the killing debate comment. You are right that the debate is actually strong - my point should have been that the invective of the “rhetoric rant” is driving more and more people out of the debate. I only responded because I had had enough. I don’t think you’ll sway any hearts and minds, and that probably wasn’t your intent. But whether you’re religious or not, we’d all be better off to love even our enemies in all we say and do.
Peace,
Mike
Jeff,
There are special, rare occasions when holding firm to an opinion, despite the fact that everyone else disagrees with you, makes you a hero.
Most of the time, though, the fact that everyone else is telling you that you’re wrong just means that you’re wrong.
This isn’t one of those special, rare occasions. Even if you didn’t mean to compare Tiller with MLK, that’s the only rational interpretation of your words. Just admit that you didn’t mean it like it sounds. No one will hold an honest mistake against you (as opposed to defending an indefensible argument).
It’s pretty funny that you keep accusing everyone who has interpreted your “rant” of being hopelessly biased by their own preconceptions. That’s more or less what you seem to be doing when you make a grotesque, sweeping generalization from how you speculate a few people you used to know in Wichita feel to what Christian fundamentalists generally feel and believe.
Rumpole
Your post is well thought out and makes perfect sense. Therefore, Jeff will disregard it and probably accuse you of being a Christian or racist (assuming that he does not believe those terms to be synonymous). Suggesting an admission of mea culpa presumes some sort of rational thought. However, that rationality also would have prevented the posting, if not the creation, of the video.
Intelligent Design -
Your remarks are offensive.
“ultra right wing, fundamentalist, neocon, evangelicals who are already hunkered down in a shotgun shack somewhere in the Montana wilderness or nothern Idaho, with a Bible in one hand and AK-47 in the other, who home school their youngins all the while indoctrinating them into believing Adam & Eve rode around cowboy style on dinosaurs, will now have to rescind their invitation to you to join them.”
I’ve lived in western Montana among many conservative Christians. Yes, they were homeschoolers, Bible believing, as well as just good people. The nicest, most generous neighbors I’ve ever met any place I’ve ever lived. These are the kind of people that share their extra vegetables from the garden, help out when your roof needs fixing, and invite you over for Sunday supper. And I never saw even one AK-47.
But guess what? We’re a multi-racial family. Multi-racial, but loved and cared for by the wonderful people we met in western Montana.
And Jeff - lay off the Christians from Wichita. I’m sure that you don’t know and have never met most of them. You ran into a few that you had a hard time with. So what. Get over it.
Mr Green Jeans,
Jeff was not trying to elevate Dr Tiller’s status to that of Dr King. He was trying to make the point that assassination is a very poor political tactic. If the Air Force dropped a smart bomb on the president of Iran’s head tomorrow, it wouldn’t do much to serve US interests. If a presidential candidate were murdered, that could give his running mate a boost in the polls.
Bill,
A person in a coma or with Alzheimer’s can have thoughts, feelings, and can experience pain. A fertilized egg cannot do any of these things.
Robert,
A fertilized egg is still human. No amount of rationalist, utilitarianist, or reductionist effort can dispute this.
Mike
This is true. An unfertilized egg cell is human too. Yet many women lose an egg cell every month. Is there a humanitarian obligation to ensure that as many of these egg cells survive as possible?
The real question is who would win a election between an unfertilized egg and somebody who just put “Bob” on their yard signs.
Good question! Let’s see if the GOP will nominate a egg cell to run for Congress next year.
“Why is it when it’s a human egg it’s an abortion but when it’s a chicken’s egg it’s an omlet?”
- George Carlin
An egg cell would still beat Montagano.