Teacher salary comparison
Posted by Mike Sylvester - 3/7/10 @ 9:16 pm - Filed Under Featured, Local Politics, National Politics, State Politics
The local school districts have to cut costs; due to this the pay and benefits of local teachers has underwent a lot of scrutiny.
I have decided to compare my wife and her earnings to that of the average local teacher. I think this comparison will surprise many of you!
First off the average teacher has a Masters Degree; they likely have about 144 credit hours of college education. My wife has a Bachelors Degree in International Business and she has a Post Bachelors Certificate in Accounting. My wife has 149 credit hours. I would argue that my wife has a similar educational background as the average local teacher. If the average teacher in fact does have a Masters Degree it could be argued that they have slightly more education than my wife.
Secondly my wife has worked in accounting for the last eighteen years. The average seniority of teachers vary depending on the school district; however, I would argue that my wife’s experience is similar to that of the average teacher.
Third my wife is a Certified Public Accountant. She had to pass a two day written exam after college and she has to get 40 hours of Continuing Professional Education each year. Teachers also have to get Continuing Education each year. Realistically I think it is a little harder to become a CPA than it is to become a teacher; however, I think the two professions are once again similar enough for a direct comparison. I think this likely offsets #2 above.
Fourth is a comparison of hours worked. My wife worked 1641 hours last year. I would estimate that the average teacher works about 1657.5 hours per year. I think my estimate for the average teacher may be a little high; however, here it is: I assume the average teacher teaches 180 days a year, I assume they work an average of 8.5 hours a day on the days they teach, and I assume they work an additional 127.5 hours (15 days) for their continuing education, days they work in school with no students present, etc. Once again my wife and the average teacher likely work a very comparable number of hours per year.
Fifth is a comparison of the rarity of the professions as this often effects pay. I think accountants and teachers are both common professions and therefore their compensation should be comparable.
Sixth is a comparison of their responsibility levels. CPA’s work with numbers, confidential client information, tax returns, etc. My wife handles the accounting for a large number of local businesses and handles the tax needs of a lot of local businesses and families. Teachers work with children they are responsible for and have to deal with Administrators as well as parents. I feel the responsibility levels are comparable. This is a hard factor to compare to be honest with you; however, I feel the two professions are comparable.
So far I would argue that my wife is very comparable to a teacher and they should be compensated about the same. The last item is where the difference lies for me.
The average teacher works for a school system and has a guaranteed job (At least until the economy tanked); unless they really made a major mistake. This provides the average teacher with more job security than the average CPA (and certainly more job security than a person who operates a small business). My wife started her own business out of our house in July of 2001 after our daughter was born. She has grown a business from nothing and our business currently employs three CPA’s (My wife, myself, and Brent) full time and we employ two very qualified people part time during “tax season.” My wife undertook a great deal of risk and she is a small business owner. In my mind this would tend to indicate that my wife should make at least a little more than the average local teacher due to the risk she has undertaken.
Drumroll please…
The average teacher at FWCS made about $75,000 in 2009 according to FWCS once benefits are counted. They made about $51,000 in salary and about $24,000 in benefits.
My wife made $52,000 last year in total compensation. So my wife received about 2/3 of the compensation of the average FWCS teacher in 2009.
I hope that you find this comparison helpful. I have always felt that CPA’s and Teachers should be comparable as far as compensation if they work the same number of hours per year.
What do you think of my comparison?
Mike Sylvester
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31 Responses to “Teacher salary comparison”
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Mike,
The comparison is certainly enlightening. However, I think a more direct comparison would be to compare the salary of a CPA at a large accounting firm since FWCS is a large company.
I would actually expect the average CPA salary at a large firm to be larger than a teacher’s average pay although I will admit that I haven’t researched it - just a hunch…
Jeff,
Why?
Mike
I found an article on the web that says starting salaries are $30,844 and the average is $47,255.
I think $24k in benefits is a bit high.
But an article in todays NS says average pay is $56,388. Don’t know who is right.
Kevin,
I took my numbers from FWCS itself…
My benefits number of $24k is dead on…
Mike
Mike,
I guess you believe everything that FWCS is putting out. Could it be that FWCS might be fudging their numbers since this is a negotiation year? Also, when do teachers grade or prepare lesson plans? It would be hard to grade during the day and you don’t seem to take this into account. I figure that a good percentage of teachers work more than eight and a half hours. One more thing, do customers cuss at you and your wife or take punches at you? The life of a teacher is probably not that great of one except during the summer. I know I would not want to be a teacher.
Mike,
Your wife needs a raise.
Spencer,
The numbers FWCS is putting out have to be in the ballpark. The numbers are similar to other school districts in the area and around the state.
I am more than a little surprised that you think the average teacher works more than 8 and a 1/2 hours a day. I think 8 and a 1/2 hours is likely more than the average teacher works.
Yes I have had customers get mad at me. For example I had a client who took $150,000 out of a retirement plan on December and had no tax with-held. They dropped off their tax infrmration to me and I had to tell them they owed almost $40,000 in income tax; they were quite irritated. I am not sure why they were mad at me as I did not advise them to pull their money out of their retirement account early; however, I was the bearer of bad news.
Mike
To any and all who say teachers have to work so much…
At 40 hours per week for 50 weeks a year a typical 9-5 employee work 2000 hours a year.
If a teacher works 10 hours per work day for 9 months out of the year they would work 1935 hours per year.
Also consider that EVERY private sector salaried employee I know already works 50 hours a week or more without the benefit of the three finest months of the year off work.
There is no such thing as an underpaid government employee.
Sorry to disagree with some of this. My wife teaches at a middle school in Southwest Allen. School starts at 7:30. Students get out at 2:15. There are team meetings until 3:00. That is 7 1/2 hours so far.
Then she gets to start grading and planning for the next day. She rarely gets home before 5:00. She brings home materials to continue grading and rarely is done before 9:00. I would put an average day during the week at about 11 hours. She does get to eat supper in there somewhere.
On Sunday, she takes a nap after church and then starts grading again. She usually puts in 3 or 4 hours on Sundays. For those that are counting, that runs an average week somewhere into the high 50s and low 60s.
School starts in mid August. This year she is done about the 2nd week of June. That leaves about 2 months, not 3. During those 2 months, she gets to take college courses to keep her license current, and she gets to pay for those herself. Her employer doesn’t pay for those, as many companies do for their employees. She also gets to review changes to curriculum materials during that “time off”. I wouldn’t call all the above having the finest 3 months of the year off.
Oh, and if she is sick, she gets to make lesson plans and go over to school to drop them off and make sure everything is ready for the substitute teacher. She still gets to eventually grade any materials from that day. Most people get to call their boss and say they are not coming in and that is it. Sometimes it is easier to just go in and be sick than to make all those preparations and handle all the issues that didn’t get handled the way she would have done it.
Yes, they get days off when there is unsafe weather. Thanks to the new state honcho, they get to work longer into June for every one of those days after the built in snow days are used up. Planning a vacation for early June when the school year is supposed to be over is taking quite a chance, as the school year easily can be extended right through it.
All this to have parents chew out the teacher when the kid gets a bad grade or misbehaves. Everyone has tough things about a job. If you think a teacher has it easy, you don’t know a good one very well…
Let us not forget about Winter and Spring breaks.
I have no delusions that being a teacher is an easy job. What I am arguing is that public sector teachers are not underpaid.
I have three teachers in my immediate family (step mother and two sisters) and I have heard horror stories about students and parents. I have seen the hours and hours that go into lesson planning and grading. And, 51k per year is a very generous salary.
Mike,
I’m not sure which part of my post your question is in response to but I’ll assume it’s the comparison. I think people who run small businesses can expect lower pay in return for more autonomy - i.e. be your own boss.
Do you think that CPA’s at larger firms are paid more than your wife? I would argue they are because they are giving up freedom and have less opportunity than your wife. For example, if your wife lands several major clients then she benefits directly while a non-partner CPA at a large firm would see a significantly smaller bonus/pay under the same circumstances.
In other words, your wife has some unrealized benefits/risk that drives her pay (right now) below the salary of other CPAs that don’t have the same potential benefits and opportunities.
Mike,
Again, I am not sure where you get $24,OOO for health insurance? I asked a teacher friend how much his insurance package cost FWCS and he told me around $9,000. Of course he is single, but he told me if he was married with a couple of children that it would run anywhere from $12,000 to $15,000.
I also believe teachers work a lot more than forty hours a week. I know they get a two month vacation in the summer and two weeks off at Chrismas and another week off in the spring, but when everything is added up teachers work just as many hours as the average professional.
I understand that you think teachers are overpaid, and if I did not know many teachers I might even agree. Fortunately, Dr. Robinson is going to have to reduce many teaching and custodial salaries if she is to keep Grile fully operational. So in a year or two you and your wife will be making a lot more than your average teacher.
Spencer,
I got my $24,000 number from the JG; who got it from FWCS.
The $24,000 is the average benefits cost and includes their pension plan Spencer…
Spencer I know a lot of teachers and with rare exceptions I do not know if any teacher who works 2000 hours per year.
I do not think teachers are overpaid. I think teachers get too much in benefits!
Public employee benefits need to be decreased so they are in line with the private sector.
Mike
Mike,
The JG is known for being very bias against teachers and is really another arm of Dr. Robinson. Why don’t you contact the state and get some real numbers? You should also contact the JG and ask them why they don’t publish the salaries of all FWCS employees. You, as well as I, know they don’t publish the salaries because then everyone would know how much Grile waste.
Mike,
I just called my friend and he told me that FWCS does pay into his pension plan. The percentage as of today is three percent of his earnings. If the average teacher makes $51,000, FWCS pays $1530 a year. So what you are telling your readers is that FWCS pays $22,470 a year on insurance for the average employee. I don’t think this is correct. Maybe FWCS pays this amount for administrators, but I don’t think they pay this amount for the average teacher.
I think I can help here using numbers directly from fwcs’ budget. Teacher salaries and benefits make up 59% of the 217,157,000 general fund budget. There are 2068 teachers which means the avg salary and benefits package is $61,954.
I left out the fact that some teachers are probably not paid only from the general fund - some are probably paid by the racial balance fund. However I can’t find a breakdown of how many teachers are paid from what fund. Although I don’t see how one could get to $74k even with those changes.
Jeff,
I would have to agree with this number. Thanks for helping to lift the fog.
Mike, your comparison is off the mark. Let say there is a lawyer in Indianapolis that makes $450,000 a year. This is more than Curtis Painter made playing for the Indianapolis Colts this year. So do lawyers make more than NFL football players? NO.
There are likely CPAs at major firms in this State that make upward of 300 to 400K. A CPA could make anywhere from 30K to 500K.
I assume the range for a teacher would be 35K to 75K.
Your comparison misses the mark.
As my father used to say when people asked him why he went into teaching, “Three reasons, June, July and August.” Of course, that was back in the days when school didn’t start in the middle of August.
What is more shocking to me, though, is that Mike and his wife are in the accounting business. Who knew? I thought he spent his days stalking Tom Henry. Live and learn, I guess.
Jeff- From presentations I’ve heard on the capital fund, I seem to remember it pays for 50/60 teachers. You might get Krista Stockman to confirm that. That’s most of the money diverted from the capital fund to racial balance fund, say 70% ballpark. The rest is spent on supplies and other misc. stuff which is where they make adjustments when money is tight.
Spencer,
The JG is biased against teachers? Really?
Mike
Spencer and Jeff,
I think that the average teacher costs FWCS an average of $24,000 per employee.
FWCS stated that the average teacher cost $74,000 in salary and benefits; the teachers union has in no way refuted that number.
After April 15th I will look into this if need be.
Mike
Spencer,
I have a feeling that your friend the teacher has absolutely no understanding of how their pension plan is funded at FWCS.
I will try to write a post about this after tax season…
Mike
Jeff,
I in no way beleive your simple calculation. I am certain there are other costs that are in different line items.
I would be willing to bet you and Spencer that $74,000 per employee is closer than Jeff’s $62,000 per employee.
Mike
Mike,
It is obvious that you believe you are right so no amount of discussion will change your opinion. Why use stats from the JG if you believe they are bias? I also think a teacher might know something about his insurance and pension plans.
Why do you stalk Tom Henry?
Spencer,
I used stats from the JG because the JG reported they came directly from FWCS.
I grant you that FWCS MIGHT put out faulty statistics; however, I highly doubt they would purposefully do that. The teachers union would catch it fairly quickly…
Pension plans and health insurance plans are complicated. I can see why you think a teacher might know how much they contributed for their health insurance and pension plan; I think most teachers would know that as well.
Your thought that a teacher would know how much the school district paid in order to provide benefits to the teachers is flat out absurd. Why on Earth would a teacher care how much FWCS spends on their benefits?
I bet that almsot no one who is not self employed knows how much their employer pays to maintain their specific benefit plan.
Mike
Do your homework.
Better benefits, better pay, & better job security. More time off & less responsibility. Teachers have the ability to moonlight & they’re able to keep property rights on anything created for or while on the job. Free laptops, free trips, free parking, free healthcare. Vacations don’t get cut short or interrupted because no one else can cover. Teachers have thousands of replacements standing by when they are sick or just need time off. Sick leave that isn’t used carries over from year to year, some are cashed out upon retirement.
I know high school teachers that think it’s creative to ‘teach’ without speaking to their students at all. I have never heard of a CPA getting away with that. Grading papers can cause wrist strain from adding all those check marks on the top of the page while sipping cappuccinos in the coffee shop after scanning the kid’s fill in the blank essay. Some may even burn their tongue on the coffee or get a paper cut. Quite the good deal compared to the accountant’s carpal tunnel surgery or the computer programmer who’s loses eyesight after their typical 50-hour workweek. Unless you can’t keep your pants on, no matter what you do you’ll be revered by all for doing less in a day than what a good parent does every morning for free.
Sounds like everyone should go back to school and be teachers!
I have been in teaching, sales and own my own business. So, I will demystify the teacher’s pay.
Do teachers make good money? Yes. Decent not extravagent! In Fort Wayne, I do of a few teachers with stay-at-home wives, and are able to live quite well! I do believe dependent upon where you live and where you teach, SWAC, NWAC, EACS or FWCS - you have more responsibility and less/more help via parental volunteers.
Being a good teacher takes killer time!!! And it’s exhausting. It’s not sitting in your nice semi-comfortable office doing work in peace and quiet.
Teachers who really want the best for their students, and want to do well for the students will work on average 10-12 hours per day. Here is my experience from a good middle school teacher and there schedule:
7:00 a.m. Arrive at school, get ready for the day by making copies, writing on the white board, setting up room for labs, etc.
7:45 a.m. Hallway patrol - gotta make sure those students aren’t making out! Geez!
8:00 a.m. Teach classes
10:30 a.m. 15 minute lunch
10:45 a.m. Prep for afternoon, check e-mails, etc.
11:00 a.m. Classes
1:00 p.m. Planning - meeting, quick restroom break, e-mail, planning, grading
1:55 p.m. Classes
3:00 p.m. Dismissal - Bus Duty, etc.
3:10 p.m. Planning, grading, meetings, etc.
4:30 p.m. Home/Store to buy classroom goodies;
5:00 p.m. Dinner
6:00 p.m. Grading, planning, prepping, etc./classes for certification
8:00 p.m. Time for self and household.
You can tutor for average of $20.00 per hour, which takes more time and planning. Excellent plans take time.
As a teacher in FWCS, I got treated like shit! I felt like a blue-class worker, who got burnt, time and time again. No air conditioning in the classroom with some 30-plus (even up to 60 dependent upon section) kids, who all needed help. Glass bottles thrown at me, kids that didn’t want learn, fights, no discipline (thanks to NCLB), etc.
In business, if someone does not want my product, I just don’t talk to them. That can’t happen in education!!!!! Prespectives hang up on me all time, frustrating, and no money - but it’s easy.
Parents can make teaching a living hell!
I am sales now - and I seriously ask myself if I work. IF You call sales work! I make phone calls (up to 200 per day), discuss the product, show my clients my product via, do extensive follow-up, etc. As I have national clients, I can do it my p.j. or from Starbucks.